tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6454161596094447448.post6543410176299355359..comments2024-02-20T12:26:24.682-05:00Comments on language goes on holiday: The WodaabeDuncan Richterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15708344766825805406noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6454161596094447448.post-28321613823457346432011-10-10T08:44:58.028-04:002011-10-10T08:44:58.028-04:00I can't add anything to that, but this is very...I can't add anything to that, but this is very good to know. Thanks!Duncan Richterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15708344766825805406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6454161596094447448.post-78129587864322289912011-10-10T05:55:16.692-04:002011-10-10T05:55:16.692-04:00And then there's the Amazonian Piraha tribe wh...<i>And then there's the Amazonian Piraha tribe who seem to lack the concept of mathematics entirely.</i><br /><br />Well, abstract concepts such as "mathematics" are often among the very last additions to the language of even societies that are already quite developed by the time they are introduced. Even my own native language, Finnish, lacked the concept of mathematics until the second half of the nineteenth century, when it was deliberately imported roughly simultaneously with many other abstract concepts (e.g. "state", "society", "science", "religion", "music"). This doesn't mean that there was no counting, calculation, etc., in Finland until then; but all those who had any practical need to refer to it with an abstract concept belonged to the social classes that were fluent in Swedish, Latin, or both.<br /><br />And it seems clear, even from a popular exposition such as this, that while the Piraha lack the concept <i>of</i> mathematics, they do not completely lack concepts <i>in</i> mathematics. Instead of having none, they have <i>next to</i> none - but that no longer differentiates them from many other indigenous peoples. That doesn't of course mean that discussing the Piraha cannot be 1) interesting or 2) Wittgensteinian; on the contrary, it can be seen as a part of a longer tradition of drawing parallels between Wittgenstein and various "deviant" cognitive styles among indigenous peoples. (Cora Diamond's discussion of Alexander Luria's research on the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks in "Rules: Looking in the Right Place" comes to mind.)<br /><br />I've followed the Piraha business myself for some years now - largely because of the Wittgensteinian angle - but I have to say that just about all of the empirical details are highly controversial. Daniel Everett, who is quoted in all the popular articles as the leading authority on the Piraha, has met with a massive wave of criticism from both linguistics and anthropology, much of which seems to have been justified. (See, for instance, Everett's <a href="http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/Everett.CA.Piraha.pdf" rel="nofollow">2005 paper in <i>Current Anthropology</i></a> with eight peer commentaries at the end.) Many of the more extreme and sensational-sounding claims made by Everett about the uniqueness of the Piraha seem to be claims that are true, but only in such qualified and toned-down forms that the sensationalism is quite lost. Conversely, whatever Everett has managed to document in a watertight way has always turned out to be already well-known in linguistics and found equally among other indigenous peoples, both in Amazonia and elsewhere.Tommi Uschanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02852865209279310471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6454161596094447448.post-37193597663826011282011-10-09T17:27:57.887-04:002011-10-09T17:27:57.887-04:00That's fascinating, thanks. I think I've h...That's fascinating, thanks. I think I've heard of them before, but many of the details in that article are new to me. Mind-boggling.Duncan Richterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15708344766825805406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6454161596094447448.post-52904221664206702732011-10-09T13:39:54.532-04:002011-10-09T13:39:54.532-04:00It's fascinating, isn't it? And then there...It's fascinating, isn't it? And then there's the Amazonian Piraha tribe who seem to lack the concept of mathematics entirely. Wittgenstein would've LOVED these guys!<br /><br />http://www.jcrows.com/withoutnumbers.htmlPhilip Cartwrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11458571502536123264noreply@blogger.com